{"id":1557,"date":"2011-07-12T22:51:01","date_gmt":"2011-07-12T20:51:01","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/?p=1557"},"modified":"2011-07-12T22:51:01","modified_gmt":"2011-07-12T20:51:01","slug":"noen-tar-seg-store-friheter-med-den-tradisjonelle-latinske-messen","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/2011\/07\/noen-tar-seg-store-friheter-med-den-tradisjonelle-latinske-messen\/","title":{"rendered":"Noen tar seg store friheter med den tradisjonelle latinske messen"},"content":{"rendered":"<p>Jeg ble overraska da <a href=\"http:\/\/rorate-caeli.blogspot.com\/2011\/07\/questions-for-our-readers-on-rubrics.html\">jeg leste her<\/a> om prester som tar seg store friheter med den tradisjonelle latinske messen; ting sies p\u00e5 morsm\u00e5let som skal v\u00e6re p\u00e5 latin, noe sies h\u00f8yt som skal sies stille, ting legges til i messen imot alle regler (det er bare i forb. med prekenen at presten kan legge til enten kunngj\u00f8ringer eller b\u00f8nner p\u00e5 morsm\u00e5let) etc. &#8211; har de ikke lest rubrikkene? Her er noe av det jeg leste:<\/p>\n<blockquote><p>&#8230; The readings (including the Gospel), the &laquo;Orate Fratres&raquo; and the &laquo;Ecce Agnus Dei&raquo; were said, not in Latin, but in Spanish only. The Gloria and Credo were sung by the celebrant himself in alternation with the congregation. The Secret and the first part of the Canon (until the Consecration) were said aloud, too loud to have merely been the celebrant&#8217;s &laquo;inaudible&raquo; voice being picked up by a microphone. Finally, Spanish hymns were sung during this Missa Cantata (vernacular hymns are supposed to be allowed only for Low Mass) and the priest himself led the faithful in a Spanish-language devotional exercise in honor of Saint Joseph, after the communion rites and before singing the post-communion (in Latin). [I&#8217;m aware of the &laquo;Prone&raquo; and of vernacular devotions that were prayed between the Gospel and the Creed, but not in any other part of the Mass.] &#8230;<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Les gjerne <a href=\"http:\/\/rorate-caeli.blogspot.com\/2011\/07\/questions-for-our-readers-on-rubrics.html\">hele innlegget<\/a> selv &#8211; og de mange kommentarene.<\/p>\n<p>Nylig <a href=\"http:\/\/wdtprs.com\/blog\/2011\/07\/wdtprs-poll-the-2nd-confiteor\/\">har jeg ogs\u00e5 lest<\/a> en debatt om man b\u00f8r ha med en ekstra (2. eller 3.) syndbekjennelse f\u00f8r kommunion &#8211; men her snakker vi jo ikke om misbruk, men om hva som er mest tjenlig &#8211; n\u00e5r det jo ikke lenger er p\u00e5budt. I en stille messe og i en missa cantata forst\u00e5r jeg at at dette ble tatt bort fra rubrikkene i 1962, men i en levittmesse skal\/ kan syndsbekjennelsen fortsatt synges av diakonen f\u00f8r folkets kommunion.<\/p>\n<p>Personlig syns jeg man skal tenke praktisk om dette sp\u00f8rsm\u00e5let. I en stille messe i et lite kapell vil alle som deltar i messen tydelig h\u00f8re, og stille kunne slutte seg til b\u00e5de prestens og ministrantens syndsbekjennelse. I en sunget messe skjer syndsbekjennelsen mer skjult for folket (mens introitus synges), s\u00e5 n\u00e5r diakonen synger denne h\u00f8yt og tydelig f\u00f8r kommunion (i en levittmesse, men b\u00e5de prest, diakon og subdiakon), vil det v\u00e6re nyttig for folk \u00e5 kunne slutte seg til det som synges (inni seg, ikke ved \u00e5 delta i sangen). Men i en missa cantata (med bare en prest) vil vel ikke syndbekjennelsen kunne oppfattes om den sies (forholdsvis lavt) av ministrantene f\u00f8r folkets kommunion.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>Jeg ble overraska da jeg leste her om prester som tar seg store friheter med den tradisjonelle latinske messen; ting sies p\u00e5 morsm\u00e5let som skal v\u00e6re p\u00e5 latin, noe sies h\u00f8yt som skal sies stille, ting legges til i messen imot alle regler (det er bare i forb. med prekenen at presten kan legge til [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"site-sidebar-layout":"default","site-content-layout":"","ast-site-content-layout":"default","site-content-style":"default","site-sidebar-style":"default","ast-global-header-display":"","ast-banner-title-visibility":"","ast-main-header-display":"","ast-hfb-above-header-display":"","ast-hfb-below-header-display":"","ast-hfb-mobile-header-display":"","site-post-title":"","ast-breadcrumbs-content":"","ast-featured-img":"","footer-sml-layout":"","ast-disable-related-posts":"","theme-transparent-header-meta":"","adv-header-id-meta":"","stick-header-meta":"","header-above-stick-meta":"","header-main-stick-meta":"","header-below-stick-meta":"","astra-migrate-meta-layouts":"default","ast-page-background-enabled":"default","ast-page-background-meta":{"desktop":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-5)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"tablet":{"background-color":"","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"mobile":{"background-color":"","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""}},"ast-content-background-meta":{"desktop":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"tablet":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"mobile":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""}},"footnotes":""},"categories":[12],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1557","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-tlm"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1557","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1557"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1557\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1557"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1557"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1557"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}