{"id":1828,"date":"2011-11-05T14:03:30","date_gmt":"2011-11-05T13:03:30","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/?p=1828"},"modified":"2011-11-05T20:27:59","modified_gmt":"2011-11-05T19:27:59","slug":"hissig-debatt-om-den-engelske-oversettelsen-av-messen-igjen","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/2011\/11\/hissig-debatt-om-den-engelske-oversettelsen-av-messen-igjen\/","title":{"rendered":"Hissig debatt om den engelske oversettelsen av messen &#8211; igjen"},"content":{"rendered":"<p><i>\u201cWhat can explain such a glaring howler? Why was it not spotted early on, rather than left to appear in a lavishly produced final text? Are priests expected to read the prayer as printed? . . . . &laquo;<\/i> kan vi lese <a href=\"http:\/\/www.thetablet.co.uk\/pdf\/5298\">i the Tablet<\/a> (s19-29), <a href=\"http:\/\/www.praytellblog.com\/index.php\/2011\/11\/04\/glaring-howler-what-a-way-to-start-with-the-new-missal\/\">p\u00e5 PrayTell-bloggen<\/a> (som stadig raser over den nye oversettelsen),  og <a href=\"http:\/\/wdtprs.com\/blog\/2011\/11\/quaeritur-what-does-the-post-communion-of-1st-sunday-advent-really-say\/\">hos Father Z<\/a> (som gir en god oversikt over hvordan teksten egentlig skal forst\u00e5s). <\/p>\n<p>B\u00f8nnen man slik diskuterer er postkommunionb\u00f8nnen (jeg liker ikke begrepet &laquo;avslutningsb\u00f8nn&raquo; i v\u00e5r messebok, det er ikke presis) p\u00e5 f\u00f8rste s\u00f8ndag i advent. Under viser jeg den latinske originalen (nykomponert i 1969, men fra to gamle kilder &#8211; se mer om det hos Father Z.), samt noen oversettelser p\u00e5 engelsk og norsk. Den engelsk oversettelsen fra 1973 er nesten latterlig forkortet (det er jo ogs\u00e5 grunnen til at de trengte en ny oversettelse), mens den norske oversettelsen har med det meste &#8211; men ikke alt, ikke &laquo;frequentata&raquo;.<\/p>\n<blockquote>\n<p>Latin:<br \/>\nProsint nobis, quaesumus, Domine, frequentata mysteria,<br \/>\nquibus nos, inter praetereuntia ambulantes,<br \/>\niam nunc instituis amare caelestia et inhaerere mansuris.<\/p>\n<p>Sv\u00e6rt bokstavelig oversettelse:<br \/>\nMay they be profitable for us, we beg You, O Lord , these oft celebrated sacramental mysteries,<br \/>\nby which You instruct that we, walking amidst the things that are passing away,<br \/>\nwould now in this very moment love heavenly things and cleave to the things that will endure.<\/p>\n<p>I norsk messebok:<br \/>\nHerre, vi ber deg: La den hellige handling vi har feiret, bli oss til gavn.<br \/>\nMidt i en forgjengelig verden l\u00e6rer du oss \u00e5 elske det som h\u00f8rer himmelen til,<br \/>\nog bygge p\u00e5 det som varer evig. <\/p>\n<p>Engelsk 1973:<br \/>\nFather, may our communion teach us to love heaven.<br \/>\nMay its promise and hope guide our way on earth.<\/p>\n<p>Engelsk 2011:<br \/>\nMay these mysteries, O Lord, in which we have participated,<br \/>\nprofit us, we pray, for even now, as we walk amid passing things,<br \/>\nyou teach us by them to love the things of heaven and hold fast to what endures.<\/p><\/blockquote>\n<p>Uenigheten g\u00e5r p\u00e5 hvordan &laquo;them&raquo; i siste linje skal forst\u00e5s; det refererer ikke til &laquo;passing things&raquo; i andre linje, men til &laquo;these mysteries&raquo; i f\u00f8rste linje. Jeg er enig i at dette kan misforst\u00e5s, og min erfaring er at slikt misforst\u00e5s lettere p\u00e5 engelsk enn p\u00e5 norsk.<\/p>\n<p>Men en videre debatt handler ogs\u00e5 om disse b\u00f8nnene &#8211; som p\u00e5 latin ofte er ganske kompakte og kompliserte &#8211; egentlig b\u00f8r forenkles s\u00e5 veldig. Kanskje man ikke skal forvente at de vil forst\u00e5s umiddelbart n\u00e5r de h\u00f8res sunget (eller sagt).<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"<p>\u201cWhat can explain such a glaring howler? Why was it not spotted early on, rather than left to appear in a lavishly produced final text? Are priests expected to read the prayer as printed? . . . . &laquo; kan vi lese i the Tablet (s19-29), p\u00e5 PrayTell-bloggen (som stadig raser over den nye oversettelsen), [&hellip;]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"site-sidebar-layout":"default","site-content-layout":"","ast-site-content-layout":"default","site-content-style":"default","site-sidebar-style":"default","ast-global-header-display":"","ast-banner-title-visibility":"","ast-main-header-display":"","ast-hfb-above-header-display":"","ast-hfb-below-header-display":"","ast-hfb-mobile-header-display":"","site-post-title":"","ast-breadcrumbs-content":"","ast-featured-img":"","footer-sml-layout":"","ast-disable-related-posts":"","theme-transparent-header-meta":"","adv-header-id-meta":"","stick-header-meta":"","header-above-stick-meta":"","header-main-stick-meta":"","header-below-stick-meta":"","astra-migrate-meta-layouts":"default","ast-page-background-enabled":"default","ast-page-background-meta":{"desktop":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-5)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"tablet":{"background-color":"","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"mobile":{"background-color":"","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""}},"ast-content-background-meta":{"desktop":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"tablet":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"mobile":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""}},"footnotes":""},"categories":[11],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-1828","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-liturgi"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1828","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=1828"}],"version-history":[{"count":0,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/1828\/revisions"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=1828"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=1828"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=1828"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}