{"id":3580,"date":"2008-08-14T08:50:42","date_gmt":"2008-08-14T06:50:42","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/aomoi.net\/blog\/arkiv\/1387"},"modified":"2012-02-13T11:27:08","modified_gmt":"2012-02-13T10:27:08","slug":"litt-mer-om-vatikankonsilet-og-messen","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/2008\/08\/litt-mer-om-vatikankonsilet-og-messen\/","title":{"rendered":"Litt mer om Vatikankonsilet og messen"},"content":{"rendered":"

Jeg siterte nylig<\/a> gammel prest som angra en del p\u00e5 det han hadde gjort ved innf\u00f8ringa av den ny liturgien. P\u00e5 Father Z.’s blog<\/a> har denne historien f\u00f8rt til en lang debatt, med 125 kommentarer s\u00e5 langt, noen ganske d\u00e5rlige og tendensi\u00f8se, men noen sv\u00e6rt gode.<\/p>\n

Her tar jeg med tre kommenterer derfra. Den f\u00f8rste sier at i hans menighet var den tids liturgiske bevegelse kommet langt, men flotte messer (TLM) med aktiv deltakelse av hele menigheten. Det argumenteres for at det var slike messer Vatikankonsilet egentlig \u00f8nska \u00e5 f\u00e5 innf\u00f8rt over hele verden. I den andre kommentaren er man egentlig enig i denne p\u00e5standen, men denne personen har sv\u00e6rt negative minner om messene p\u00e5 60-tallet. Den tredje kommentaren er fra en prest som ogs\u00e5 er selvkristisk til hvordan han oppf\u00f8rte seg p\u00e5 tidlig 70-tall.<\/p>\n

I must have been an extremely fortunate Catholic. I was in a parish immediately prior to Vatican II that participated in the \u201cLiturgical Movement.\u201d Hence, I learned from a very early age, 6 or so, to learn the responses to the Mass in Latin, and by the time I was 10 I could sing 5 or 6 of the Latin chant ordinaries. When the changes began in late 1964 I was thorougly confused and angry because I LOVED the Mass in which I was \u201cactually\u201d participating. However, in speaking with my confreres from other parishes in that period, I learned that I was one of the very lucky ones because for most of them, the Mass was a very distant experience. That being said, I now know, that what the Council Fathers desired was for the Faithful to participate in the Mass as I did back then. When you read Sacrosanctum Concilium, it appears they were trying to universalize the experience I had. Unfortunately, liturgical \u201creform\u201d was highjacked by progressives who distorted what the Council Fathers desired and we are only today beginning to recover what they truly meant by liturgical reform, i.e. to do what I was already doing on the eve of the Council.<\/p>\n

————–<\/p>\n

I do believe that you are right. What you had in your parish before the Council is what the Council documents propose.<\/p>\n

Unfortunately, it seems, the usual experience was different. At least in my parish. We had sung Mass only twice a year (Christmas and Easter) <\/font><\/i> – even though we had a Catholic school where there might have been a choir to sing Requiems, if nothing else. We didn\u2019t even have \u201cdialogue Mass\u201d until the vernacular come in!<\/p>\n

My memories of Mass as a child were kneeling and reading my English (I was a \u201cpublic\u201d and we were denied bilingual Missals for some reason that I never understood) and waiting to hear the bell ring to know if I was in the right place. The priest was inaudible. It was prayerful, but I was always attracted to music and it made me sad. At least we go to sing \u201cHoly God We Praise thy Name\u201d after Benediction if we went to the 11 am Mass.<\/p>\n

If only your experience had been the norm, perhaps the reforms would have been different. We went from silent low Mass to vernacular said Mass (soon with Peter, Paul, and Mary hymn sandwich) in about 18 months. Sad.<\/p>\n

——————<\/p>\n

As a young priest in the 1970s, I looked down on those who had given up Mass because of the changes. My thinking was that the \u201cnew\u201d Mass is valid, so why don\u2019t they accept it. There\u2019s some truth in that. But it\u2019s a limited and cold truth. \u201cLimited\u201d because it doesn\u2019t sufficiently consider the human-ness of faith and worship. I now believe that I was arrogant, insensitive and immature in my judgement of them. Certainly the present Holy Father is emphasising the importance of beauty \u2013 the beauty of music, architecture, vestements, and ritual. \u201cRitual\u201d requires predictability and repetion. It has the same effect as a mantra. The celebration of the novus ordo, at its best, could express these qualities. (It would\u2019nt need to be solemn or \u201cHigh\u201d.) The tragedy of the last 40 years is that our parishes rarely experience it at its best. It is sobering to think that the reason why fewer are attending Mass could be in front of our eyes \u2013 the Mass itself! (Or rather the way it is celebrated.) If I wanted to enjoy myself, the Church would be the last place I\u2019d look to! Anyone else could provide that. What the Church can offer is a sense of the transcendent. That\u2019s what we seek. But that\u2019s what our liturgy tends to lack. In the motu proprio Pope Benedict expressed his intention that the extraordinary form would influence or inform the celebration of the novus ordo Mass. It has certainly done that for me! <\/font><\/i><\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Jeg siterte nylig gammel prest som angra en del p\u00e5 det han hadde gjort ved innf\u00f8ringa av den ny liturgien. P\u00e5 Father Z.’s blog har denne historien f\u00f8rt til en lang debatt, med 125 kommentarer s\u00e5 langt, noen ganske d\u00e5rlige og tendensi\u00f8se, men noen sv\u00e6rt gode. Her tar jeg med tre kommenterer derfra. Den f\u00f8rste […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"site-sidebar-layout":"default","site-content-layout":"","ast-site-content-layout":"default","site-content-style":"default","site-sidebar-style":"default","ast-global-header-display":"","ast-banner-title-visibility":"","ast-main-header-display":"","ast-hfb-above-header-display":"","ast-hfb-below-header-display":"","ast-hfb-mobile-header-display":"","site-post-title":"","ast-breadcrumbs-content":"","ast-featured-img":"","footer-sml-layout":"","ast-disable-related-posts":"","theme-transparent-header-meta":"","adv-header-id-meta":"","stick-header-meta":"","header-above-stick-meta":"","header-main-stick-meta":"","header-below-stick-meta":"","astra-migrate-meta-layouts":"default","ast-page-background-enabled":"default","ast-page-background-meta":{"desktop":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-5)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"tablet":{"background-color":"","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"mobile":{"background-color":"","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""}},"ast-content-background-meta":{"desktop":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"tablet":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"mobile":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""}},"footnotes":""},"categories":[11,12],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-3580","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-liturgi","category-tlm"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3580","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=3580"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3580\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":5465,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/3580\/revisions\/5465"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=3580"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=3580"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=3580"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}