{"id":9370,"date":"2014-12-05T15:13:04","date_gmt":"2014-12-05T13:13:04","guid":{"rendered":"http:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/?p=9370"},"modified":"2014-12-05T15:15:41","modified_gmt":"2014-12-05T13:15:41","slug":"inngaelse-av-ekteskap-kirke-og-stat","status":"publish","type":"post","link":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/2014\/12\/inngaelse-av-ekteskap-kirke-og-stat\/","title":{"rendered":"Inng\u00e5else av ekteskap – kirke og stat"},"content":{"rendered":"

Da Norge for noen f\u00e5 \u00e5r siden vedtok i Stortinget at ogs\u00e5 mennesker av samme kj\u00f8nn kunne gifte seg med hverandre, var det (med rette) etter motstand fra Den katolske Kirke og andre kirkesamfunn. Men da noen (heldigvis ikke mange) deretter sa at dette ogs\u00e5 \u00f8dela ekteskapene mellom en mann og en kvinne, var det en misforst\u00e5else. (I Norge skjer det n\u00e5 noe fra motsatt side; noen begynner \u00e5 argumentere for at kirkene m\u00e5 miste vigselsretten fordi de ikke vil vie homofile par – se her i Aftenposten<\/a>. Det er vel ogs\u00e5 en helt un\u00f8dvendig konklusjon, som vel likevel ikke vil f\u00e5 s\u00e5 stor betydning for Den katolske Kirke; det vil bare bety at den kirkelige og den statlige bekreftelsen av ekteskapet vil m\u00e5tte skje i to seremonier (noe som allerede er tilfelle i flere land i Europa), isteden for begge deler i \u00e9n seremoni.)<\/em><\/p>\n

I USA er det n\u00e5 kristne i noen stater der homofile ekteskap nylig har blitt godtatt, som \u00f8nsker \u00e5 nekte \u00e5 samarbeide med myndighetene om ekteskapsinng\u00e5elsen. Dette mener kirkerettseksperten Edward Peters er en sv\u00e6rt d\u00e5rlig id\u00e9 og bygger p\u00e5 en misforst\u00e5else av hva som konstituerer et ekteskap. Se HER<\/a> og her en samling av artikler<\/a>. Han skriver:<\/p>\n

The gist of a recent poll is that one in three Americans do not want religious ministers to \u201csign marriage licenses as representatives of the state\u201d so as to avoid, I guess, a connection between \u201ccivil marriage\u201d and \u201creligious marriage\u201d, as if, you know, those are two fundamentally different things. Let me rephrase the poll findings: one in three Americans don\u2019t understand what clergy signing marriage certificates are doing (and aren\u2019t doing!) and so don\u2019t know a good thing when they see it.<\/p>\n

The call for ministers to boycott civil wedding certificates proposed under the wrongly-named \u201cMarriage Pledge\u201d (it is actually a Pledge Not to Acknowledge Real Marriages) probably would have gone nowhere except that it found an ally in the journal First Things. Well, that\u2019s their responsibility. Mine is to make sure that as many people as possible see that the Radner-Seitz \u201cMarriage Pledge\u201d rests on a faulty understanding of what makes marriage and, in turn, of what ministers of religion do in certifying that a given marriage took place before them. I am not going to review all of the problems inherent in Radner-Seitz\u2019s proposal, though they are many. Here I address just two points.<\/p>\n

In the West (yes, I know Eastern Christianity thinks differently, but that problem is for another day), it has been settled matter among all Christians (though secular elements of the West do not realize that Christian thought has permeated their consciousness, too), it has been, as I say, settled matter in the West that the consent of the parties establishes marriage. If you think that the State made up marriage and confers it on a couple, or if you think that the Church created and bestows marriage on believers, or that God, or Zeus, or the Big Cosmic Other sends this thing called marriage on two people who want it, or if you hold any other theory of marriage whatsoever, besides that the consent of the parties makes marriage\u2014then you need to stop reading this blog post and start studying solid treatises on marriage going back to the ancient Romans in some cases, and virtually everything since the 13th century, secular and religious alike.<\/p>\n

I\u2019m serious. If you do not really see that the couple\u2019s consent makes marriage then you don\u2019t understand what\u2019s at stake.<\/p>\n

Now, for those who do know that the consent of the parties makes marriage, the fundamental supposition of the Radner-Seitz Pledge\u2014namely, that the State has changed the definition of marriage (which it can\u2019t do and, even by its own count, has not succeeded in doing yet!) and, as a result, ministers who care about real marriage should not confer or cooperate in conferring marriage (as understood by at least some States), that supposition, I say, collapses: The State does not confer marriage on couples, couples confer marriage on each other! All the State does, and for that matter all the Church does, (and, for that matter, all that God does between baptized persons, but that discussion is more complex and is not immediately relevant to a discussion of Church-State cooperation in the matter of marriage), is to recognize what the couple did, namely, they married. …<\/p><\/blockquote>\n

Jeg leser FirstThings som Peters her kritiserer – de skriver om the Marriage Pledge bl.a. her<\/a>.<\/p>\n","protected":false},"excerpt":{"rendered":"

Da Norge for noen f\u00e5 \u00e5r siden vedtok i Stortinget at ogs\u00e5 mennesker av samme kj\u00f8nn kunne gifte seg med hverandre, var det (med rette) etter motstand fra Den katolske Kirke og andre kirkesamfunn. Men da noen (heldigvis ikke mange) deretter sa at dette ogs\u00e5 \u00f8dela ekteskapene mellom en mann og en kvinne, var det […]<\/p>\n","protected":false},"author":2,"featured_media":0,"comment_status":"open","ping_status":"open","sticky":false,"template":"","format":"standard","meta":{"site-sidebar-layout":"default","site-content-layout":"","ast-site-content-layout":"default","site-content-style":"default","site-sidebar-style":"default","ast-global-header-display":"","ast-banner-title-visibility":"","ast-main-header-display":"","ast-hfb-above-header-display":"","ast-hfb-below-header-display":"","ast-hfb-mobile-header-display":"","site-post-title":"","ast-breadcrumbs-content":"","ast-featured-img":"","footer-sml-layout":"","ast-disable-related-posts":"","theme-transparent-header-meta":"","adv-header-id-meta":"","stick-header-meta":"","header-above-stick-meta":"","header-main-stick-meta":"","header-below-stick-meta":"","astra-migrate-meta-layouts":"default","ast-page-background-enabled":"default","ast-page-background-meta":{"desktop":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-5)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"tablet":{"background-color":"","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"mobile":{"background-color":"","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""}},"ast-content-background-meta":{"desktop":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"tablet":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""},"mobile":{"background-color":"var(--ast-global-color-4)","background-image":"","background-repeat":"repeat","background-position":"center center","background-size":"auto","background-attachment":"scroll","background-type":"","background-media":"","overlay-type":"","overlay-color":"","overlay-opacity":"","overlay-gradient":""}},"footnotes":""},"categories":[4,3],"tags":[],"class_list":["post-9370","post","type-post","status-publish","format-standard","hentry","category-generelt","category-katolsk"],"_links":{"self":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9370","targetHints":{"allow":["GET"]}}],"collection":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts"}],"about":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/types\/post"}],"author":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/users\/2"}],"replies":[{"embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/comments?post=9370"}],"version-history":[{"count":2,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9370\/revisions"}],"predecessor-version":[{"id":9372,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/posts\/9370\/revisions\/9372"}],"wp:attachment":[{"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/media?parent=9370"}],"wp:term":[{"taxonomy":"category","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/categories?post=9370"},{"taxonomy":"post_tag","embeddable":true,"href":"https:\/\/aomoi.net\/blogg\/wp-json\/wp\/v2\/tags?post=9370"}],"curies":[{"name":"wp","href":"https:\/\/api.w.org\/{rel}","templated":true}]}}