Økumenikk

P. Lutz: «Luther fornekter messeofferet»

Teologi, Økumenikk /

I min gjennomgang av pater Lutz hefte: «Hva har Luther å gi oss?», har jeg nå kommet til det I – 3, som har som overskrift: Sakramentene og Messeofferet fornektes. (Jeg tar ikke med dette for å være slem, men for å vise hvordan en av det katolske Norges beste teologer rundt 1950 formulerte sine – helt tradisjonelle – katolske synspunkter.)

3. Sakramentene og Messeofferet fornektes.

Etter hvert som Luther forvillet seg i sine virkelighetsfjerne forestillinger ble han mer og mer fremmed i den kristne nådes verden. Derfor var han heller ikke sen med å forkaste alle store kristne livsverdier så snart han ble oppmerksom på at de var uforenlige med hans oppfatning av frelsen og nåden. Sakramentene i første rekke måtte bli uforståelige for ham. De var «gjerninger». Hvordan kunne de gagne noe når de forledet den troende til å oppgi sin uvirksomme tro? Hvordan kunne en synlig ritus innebære en frelsende kraft fra Gud når ikke engang sjelen kunne bli delaktig i Gud ved et virkelig livssamfunn? Hvordan kunne sakramentene ha livgivende virkning når ikke engang Jesu korsoffer virkelig utslettet synden, men bare tok syndeansvaret fra oss? Luther holdt nok fast ved enkelte sakramenter. Men hans oppfatning av deres virkninger og virkemåte fjernet seg mer og mer fra den apostoliske tradisjon. I mange protestanters øyne ble de derfor til slutt helt verdiløse.

Især ble messeofferet og prestevielsen gjenstand for Luthers avsky. Av alle «gjerninger» stod messen for Luther i den skarpeste motsetning til frelsen «ved troen alene». Slik måtte det være. Jesu evige offer anskueliggjort for oss under en ritus som fremstiller Jesu død på korset og som forkynner den dype sannhet at Jesus på samme tid som Han ofrer seg selv personlig, frembærer også sitt mystiske legeme, Kirken, som en offergave for Gud, dette mysterium er noe uendelig opphøyet og oppløftende, når man vet at kristendom men er et fellesliv med Kristus. Har man mistet forståelsen herfor – og Luthers lære om den døde vilje og om syndens herredømme er en direkte fornektelse av denne tro så blir man også uimottagelig for messens mysterium og, som Luther, bare oppmerksom på de menneskelige småligheter, som dessverre hetter seg ved alle store ting. …

P. Lutz: «Luther fornekter messeofferet»Les mer »

Tredje hovedrunde med katolsk-anglikansk dialog skal begynne

Økumenikk /

17. til 27. mai i år skal tredje hovedrunde for ARCIC (Anglican-Roman Catholic International Commission) begynne – første runde gikk fra 1970 til 1982 og andre runde fra 1983 til 2005. Men når spør William Oddie i the Catholic Herlad hva som er poenget med denne tredje omgangen, for alt håp om enhet mellom de to kirkene er vel oppgitt forlengst? Fra katolsk side vil jeg selv mene at vi ikke kan la være å arbeide intenst for kristen enhet (som Jesus selv ber oss om), så lenge det er noen som helst mulighet for å komme videre.

Men Oddie (tidligere anglikaner) er ganske så oppgitt og skarp i sine kommentarer:

And now, ARCIC III: isn’t it time to bring this ecumenical farce to an end? …

… I remember as a Catholic-minded Anglican desperately hoping, back in the 70s, in the early days of ARCIC, that a series of statements would somehow emerge which would uncover a common faith, on the basis of which corporate reunion might be a distant prospect. The statements did emerge, on Ministry, Sacraments and so forth: but they were never officially accepted by Rome as being a sound or adequate representation of Catholic belief, and nor were they.

The trouble with ARCIC always was (as a former Catholic member of it once explained to me) that on the Catholic side of the table you have a body of men (mostly bishops) who represent a more or less coherent view, being members of a Church which has established means of knowing and declaring what it believes. On the Anglican side of the table you have a body of men (and it was only men, on both sides, in those days) the divisions between whom are just fundamental as, and sometimes a lot more fundamental than, those between any one of them and the Catholic representatives they faced: they all represented only themselves. …

…Can anybody explain to me why we carry on with ARCIC? Is there any real intention, as 30 years ago there undoubtedly was, of actually acheiving something? Is it a continuing self-delusion on the part of those participating? Or is ARCIC III just a PR exercise, designed to avert attention from the fact that we have now, inevitably but finally, come to the bitter end of the ecumenical road?

Det som skjer i England nå og økumenikk

Katolsk, Økumenikk /

Jeg nevnte mandag noen engelske katolikker som ikke er så glade for den store tilstrømningen av tidligere anglikanere. Dette kommenteres på en interessant måte på bloggen Dominus mihi adjutor – en blogg jeg aldri har sett før:

… it means that a goodly number of Anglicans and their clergy will be entering into full communion with the Catholic Church. Moreover, surely their arrival will only enrich the diversity of the Catholic Church, as they bring their own traditions, or “patrimony”, of liturgical worthiness, pastoral sensitivity and biblical engagement. They will speak an idiom clearly understood by Anglicans, who may then, we pray, feel moved to explore further the path to full communion by means of this familiar idiom.

Here, one suspects, is her problem. The Ordinariate reveals clearly that for the Catholic Church ecumenism is not about ongoing “dialogue” for its own sake. It is about encouraging and convincing Christians to enter into full communion with the Church, from which they are estranged due to actions centuries ago. If it means anything regarding the relations between the Anglican Communion and the Catholic Church it is that the Church has only one goal, ultimately, for ecumenical dialogue with Anglicans: that they return to the Church. This may disturb many Anglicans, for sure, but that is no reason to stop the progress of ecumenism. …

Ikke alle engelske katolikker er positive til Ordinariatet

Katolsk, Økumenikk /

Tina Beattie underviser i ‘Katolske studier’ ved Roehampton University og svarer på spørsmål om hvorfor enkelte engelske katolikker har reservasjonen overfor pave Benedikts generøse tilbud til tradisjonelle anglikanere. Hun sa i går i et program på BBC Radio 4:

… I don’t want to call it a problem, but I think many of us are perplexed about what this means in terms of the Catholic Communion, and indeed obviously for relations between our two Churches. The Catholic Church has a unity that’s not based on likemindedness or sameness, and it’s very puzzling to know how this very homogenous, small group of likeminded people, offered a quasi-independent place within the Catholic Communion, is going to fit in and become part of us.

And is your objection partly to do with the fact that you don’t like what they stand for? Particularly on the question of women’s role in the Church?

I’m not happy about that, no. …

… shouldn’t you just welcome them into your Church?’

We should. And I think we…

You’re not really doing that… You’re saying you’d rather not have them.

That’s why I’m not saying it’s a problem, I think we’re perplexed. We don’t know yet what this welcome means. If I go to a mass of the Ordinariate, is that..? Obviously it’s part of the same Eucharistic Communion, but then, why does there need to be this separation? I welcome the riches of the Anglican liturgy coming into the Roman Catholic Church. There’s a lot to celebrate. They can bring with them enormous wealth that maybe we’ve lost in our rather more watered-down traditions. I think they’ll find that the Roman Catholic Church is a lot less aesthetic in its worship than High Anglicanism. So, there’s a big process of adjustment ahead, and of course we want them to do that. But I think many of us would feel happier if we were welcoming individuals, who’d come in – I’m a convert; I know what it feels like to make that change – if it was individuals coming in with a more open and positive attitude to why they were coming, maybe. …

Les mer om dette her.

Ikke alle er ivrige deltakere i den økumeniske bønneuka

Økumenikk /


En katolsk prest i England, Fr Ray Blake, skriver på sin blogg at han ikke er så veldig entusiastisk mht til kristen enhet – eller han ser vel ikke muligheten for seg at det kan skje, i alle fall med de forskjellige protestantiske kirkesamfunn. Slik skriver han:

The Week of Prayer for Christian Unity for most of us is about lukewarm tea and stale biscuits in a damp church hall, making friends or building relationships with people who one will never ever share visible unity. It is important but I think to be honest people might be more enthusiastic if spoke about The Week of Prayer for Christian Friendship, or even Christian Co-Operation.

The great act of unity that preceded the Week of Prayer, the setting of the Ordinariate and the ordination of Fr Newton and companions highlighted the possibilities and aim of Christian Unity. For Catholics Christian Unity isn’t fuzzy nor is there anything ambiguous about it but an acceptance of the fullness of the Christian faith by other Christians. With the ancient Churches there can be real dialogue because we start from a common understanding of God, I mean a God who is Triune and Incarnate and who communicates directly through the sacraments and Tradition, with liberal post reformation Christians one sometimes wonders whether we have more in common with orthodox Jews and Muslims, at least they believe in a God who speaks to us, who gives us more than take it or leave it morality. …

Han har altså større håp om at det skal være mulig å komme til enhet med de ortodokse kirkene, og (legger han til) med de katolske gruppene som i dag ikke har fullt fellesskap med Den katolske Kirke:

The real focus of Unity ought to be first of all amongst ourselves. Is it too much today to make a distinction between those in schism and those in heresy. One of the important burdens laid on Bishops by the Second Vatican Council is to be the minister of unity, nothing new the Church has always seen him is as the focus of communion, the model of the Good Sherpherd reminds us that the Bishop is supposed to go in search of the lost sheep.

I was heartened to read the Bishop of Nice, Mgr Louis Sankalé had been to tea, or at least visited the local SSPX, strange that it should be news. Strange that it should be more acceptable to welcome into one’s pulpit or lead prayers in one’s church the local female liberal Methodist minster but trying to invite a priest of the Society of Pius X would throw up all types of problems and worst, suspicions!

«Religion er blitt som et koldtbord. Det tenkte ikke Luther på.»

Økumenikk /

Vårt Land hadde tidligere denne uka en interessant artikkel om dagens religiøse virkelighet, skrevet av Marianne Lystrup. Der påpeker hun at mens sekulære mennesker gjerne lar seg inspirere av det åndelige i vår tid (på sine egne premisser), sliter den organiserte kristendommen. Hun finner utgangspunktet for dette hos Luther, som ba folket lese og tolke Bibelen selv, fører det videre til bl.a. pietismens personlige kristentro, helt fram til dagens koldtbord-virkelighet. Hun avslutter så sin artikkel med alternativet til disse personlige, religiøse variantene – som er Den katolske Kirke:

… Som en motsats til den moderne selvbetjeningstroen, står den katolske kirke der som en mastodont og holder på sitt: Sine håpløst umoderne regler, og sine formynderske dogmer. Men de har også et tilbud som nesten er for godt til å være sant: En katolikk i sjelenød kan lene seg til kirken, sin mor, og be henne tro for seg. Det er en nådens favn som kan være god å krype inn i, når tidene er harde, og man selv ikke finner troens frø i sitt hjerte.

For den svimlende friheten som ligger i en tro man selv er fullt og helt herre over, har en kjip bakside: Ansvar. Ansvar for å skille mellom godt og dårlig, mellom juks og ekte vare på religionens koldtbord. Det kan være tungt å bære helt alene. Dessuten er jo en ikke ubetydelig side av religion, at mennesket finner sin plass i en sammenheng som er større enn det enkelte menneske.

Hvis du venter på en konklusjon her, så må jeg skuffe deg. Jeg har ikke tenkt å anbefale hverken dogmefavnen i St. Olav, inderlighetens Betel eller noen av de andre mulighetene vi har. Og jeg vil i hvert fall ikke anbefale alternativmessa som åndelig fotfeste eller populærkulturens utvannede sjelesurfing. Men vi har noe å tygge på her. Og vi har alle grunn til å glede oss over at vi har tyggefrihet.

Bilder og referat fra San Paolo fuori le mura

Økumenikk /



Et referat fra bønnegudstjenesten i går kveld, i kirken San Paolo fuori le mura, ved avslutningen av bønneuken for kristen enhet, refereres pave Benedikt slik: «Enhet er et moralsk imperativ for alle kristne«. I referatet står det også:

The journey towards full Christian unity has “made great strides” in the past few years even if it has not reached its goal, one that remains “a moral imperative and a response to a specific call of the Lord. For this reason, we must defeat pessimism and the temptation to give in for this represents a lack of trust in the power of the Holy Spirit,” Benedict XVI said as he urged Catholics and all Christians to celebrate the end of the Week of Prayer for Christian Unity.

Representatives of other Churches and Ecclesial communities present in Rome took part in the ceremony in Rome’s Saint Paul Basilica Outside-the-Walls. They included a delegation of the German Lutheran Church as well as members of the Joint International Commission for Theological Dialogue between the Catholic Church and the Oriental Orthodox Churches, whose meeting is scheduled in Rome a few days from now. “Let us entrust the success of your meeting to the Lord,” the Pope told the latter, “so that it may be a step towards the much hoped for unity.” …

«Vi er fortsatt langt fra den enheten Kristus ba om»

Økumenikk /

Slik begynte pave Benedikt sin preken under den økumenesike bønnegudstjenesten i kirken Paulus utenfor murene i Roma i går kveld:

Brothers and Sisters,

Following the example of Jesus, who on the eve of his Passion prayed to the Father for his disciples «that they may all be one» (John 17:21), Christians continue to invoke incessantly from God the gift of this unity. This request is made more intense during the Week of Prayer, which ends today, when the Churches and ecclesial Communities meditate and pray together for the unity of all Christians.

This year the theme offered for our meditation was proposed by the Christian communities of Jerusalem, to which I would like to express by heartfelt gratitude, accompanied by the assurance of affection and prayer either on my part or on that of the whole of the Church. The Christians of the Holy City invite us to renew and reinforce our commitment for the re-establishment of full unity meditating on the model of life of the first disciples of Christ gathered in Jerusalem: … …

Les hele prekenen her.

Hyggelig å se bilder fra Bergen

Økumenikk /

I Bergen – i min tid både i St Paul kirke og hos søstrene på Marias Minde – var det hvert år vellykkede arrangementer under bønneuken for kristen enhet – mens i Stavanger og Oslo ser dette ut til å være vanskeligere å få til. I dag leser jeg en rapport på St Paul bloggen om at samlingen på Marias Minde (hos Fransiskus Xaveriussøstrene, ikke langt fra Handelshøyskolen) var vellykket også i år. Bildene under viser dette ganske tydelig.


Erant perseverantes in doctrina Apostolorum, et communicatione fractionis panis, et orationibus.

Paven, Økumenikk /

I går tok pave Benedikt opp bønneuken for kristne enhet i onsdagsaudiensen – der årets tema er fra Apost.gj. 2,42: «Trofast holdt de seg til apostlenes lære og samfunnet, til brødsbrytelsen og bønnene.» Catholic News Afency har følgende referat av pavens tale:

… Pope Benedict met with pilgrims to Rome in the Vatican’s Paul VI Hall for his weekly general audience. In observation of the annual Week of Prayer for Christian Unity (Jan. 18-25), he based his message on «the gift of full communion.»

Christians take part in the week of prayer for unity «to bear witness to the profound ties that unite them and to invoke the gift of full communion,» said the Pope.

«They devoted themselves to the Apostles’ teaching and fellowship, to the breaking of bread and the prayers» is the theme of this year’s prayer week for the unity of Christians. Pope Benedict said that this passage from the Acts of the Apostles offers a vision of four characteristics that defined the first Christian community in Jerusalem «as a place of unity and love.»

In the teaching of the apostles, in fraternal communion, in the breaking of bread and in prayer are four «pillars» that continue to be the foundation of Christian life and build Church unity, he explained.

Every effort to increase unity must involve increased faithfulness to the teaching of the first Christians, the apostles, the Pope said. «Even today,» he explained, «the community of believers recognizes the norms of its own faith in that reference to the teaching of the Apostles.»

Fraternal communion was «the most tangible expression of unity between disciples and the Lord, especially for the outside world,» he pointed out.

Although it has not been without difficulty, the history of relations between Christians of all types is one of «fraternity, of co-operation and of human and spiritual sharing,» he said.

The Pope moved to the third characteristic, the «breaking of bread,» calling it the «pinnacle» of man’s union with God. As a way of unifying oneself with Christ’s sacrifice, he said, «it also represents the completeness of the unity of Christ’s disciples, full communion.»

Christians’ prayers take on a «penitential dimension» when one considers that at this moment it is impossible to share the Body of Christ with all Christians in the Eucharist, the Pope said.

He encouraged a «more generous commitment» to eventually bring Christians together in full communion, «breaking the Eucharistic bread and drinking from the same chalice.»

The final «pillar,» he said, is that of prayer. It means being open to the fraternity offered to Christians as the children of God, but also «it means being ready for forgiveness and reconciliation,» he explained. …

Fr Keith Newton leder det nye engelske ordinariatet

Katolsk, Økumenikk /

En av de tre tidligere anglikanske biskopene som sist uke ble ordinert til katolske prester, Fr Keith Newton, er av pave Benedikt valgt til leder av dette personlige ordinatiatet for tidligere anglikanere. Han hold en pressekonferanse i går, som kan høres her – DEL 1, DEl 2, og HØRES HER.

Selv om han ikke er (og ikke blir) biskop, har han på mange måter biskopelig myndighet, og kan bære ring, stav og mitra og delta med stemmerett i den engelske bispekonferansen. Men han må ut av huset der han og familien bor før 1. mars, han har så langt ingen lønn; han låner noen kontorer midlertidig, men så langt har de ingen kirke de kan bruke. Sammen med de to andre tidligere anglikanske biskopene (og biskop Hopes) skal han forberede opptakelsen av flere titalls anglikanske prester og kanskje 30 grupper med lekfolk – som skal foregå fra askeonsadg fram til pinse.

Møtet mellom religiøse ledere i Assisi i oktober

Katolsk, Økumenikk /

1. januar kunngjorde pave Benedikt at han ville invitere ledere fra mange religioner til et nytt møte i Assisi i oktober i år, 25 år etter at et lignende møte først ble arrangert der, av pave Johannes Paul II. Noen likte dette første møtet godt, og andre mislikte det kraftig; fordi de mente det var altfor åpent for synkretisme. På www.chiesa kan vi lese om dette:

… Professor Roberto de Mattei … has joined other Catholic figures in signing an appeal to the pope that the new meeting in Assisi «not reignite the syncretistic confusion» of the first, the one convened on October 27, 1986, by John Paul II in the city of Saint Francis.

In effect, in 1986, then cardinal Joseph Ratzinger did not go to that first meeting, of which he was critical. He did, however, take part in a repeat of it held also in Assisi on January 24, 2002, agreeing «in extremis» after being assured that the mistakes of the previous meeting would not be made again.

The main mistake fostered by the meeting in Assisi in 1986 was that of equating the religions as sources of salvation for humanity. Against this error, the congregation for the doctrine of the faith issued in 2000 the declaration «Dominus Iesus,» reaffirming that every man has no other savior than Jesus.

But also as pope, Ratzinger has again warned against the confusion. In a message to the bishop of Assisi dated September 2, 2006, he wrote:

«In order not to misunderstand the meaning of what John Paul II wanted to accomplish in 1986, and what, in his own words, is described as the ‘spirit of Assisi’, it is important not to forget the attention that was paid at that time to prevent the interreligious prayer meeting from being subjected to syncretistic interpretations founded upon a relativistic conception. […] For this reason, even when we gather together to pray for peace, this prayer must be carried out according to the distinct approach that is proper to each of the various religions. This was the decision in 1986, and this decision cannot but remain valid today as well. The coming together of those who are different must not give the impression of a concession to that relativism that denies the very meaning of truth and the possibility of attaining it.” …

Pave Benedikt tok opp dette temaet på nytt igjen i Assisi i 2007 – les mer om dette hos www.chiesa.

The Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham

Katolsk, Økumenikk /

Som ventet opprettet pave Benedikts i dag et ‘personlig ordinariat’ for Den katolske Kirke i Engalnd & Wales. The Catholic Herald skriver om dette:

… The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith has issued a Decree of Erection which officially founds an ordinariate in England and Wales. It will be known as the Personal Ordinariate of Our Lady of Walsingham, under the protection of Blessed John Henry Newman. The Ordinary, or head, of the ordinariate will be Fr Keith Newton. …

… Members of the ordinariate will be fully fledged Catholics of the Roman Rite. Ordinariate priests will be able to celebrate Mass freely in Catholic churches and Catholics attending ordinariate Masses will be able to receive Communion there.

Jeg har selv vært i Walsingham (nordøst for London), men kjenenr ikke (fromhets)tradisjonen der særlig godt. Les gjerne om stedet på Wikipedia.

Bilder fra diakonvielsen torsdag

Katolsk, Økumenikk /

På det første bildet blir John Broadhurst ordinert til diakon i Den katolske Kirke av biskop Alan Hopes, på bilde nummer to står han ikledd dalmatika sammen med de to andre tidligere anglikanske biskopene.


Diakonvielsen(e) foregikk i kapellet til presteseminaret Allen Hall i London, der jeg selv om mange av prestene i Oslo katolske bispedømme har studert.

Jeg har lest om dette på The Ordinariate Portal; HER, HER, HER, HER og bildene HER.

Pave Benedikts «januarsalg»

Paven, Økumenikk /

En engelsk katolsk prest, Fr. Ray Blake, sammenligner opptagelsen og ordinasjonen av tidligere anglikanske biskoper med butikkenes billisalg i januar:

January Sales and the Ordinariate for some reason seem to juxtapose themselves in my mind.

Anglican former bishops moving, gliding almost, from the CofE to the Catholic Church, being ordained within just over a fortnight, priesthood following diaconate almost without a breath in between. It seems as if the Pope has flung open the doors and is offering admittance to the Church at bargain basement prices. It throws our whole rather complex sense of «RCIAing» people into confusion, it is bit like Philip and the Ethiopian eunuch, a quick discourse on a passage of Isaiah and baptism, and that was it, no more, not even the Eucharist. Presumably what Philip was looking for was faith. The same with Ordinariate.

All that is required is an affirmative response to the question, «Do you you believe in contents of the Catechism of the Catholic Church? and can you say also say that you believe and profess all that the holy Catholic Church teaches, believes and proclaims to be revealed by God? That is all, anything else is froth. …

… It is easy to be niggardly about the Ordinariate but the Pope has opened wide the door to those who had mistakenly thought they were already part of it. It is up to us to to follow the example of his generosity. It is like the January sales, Grace is freely available at bargain prices – just like Pentecost – but Grace often appears cheap but the cost is to follow Christ on the narrow way. For those who set out on the Ordinariate path the cost seems to be a little like cost paid by founding colonist on a strange shore, estrangement from friends and all that is familiar, after the initial euphoria there will be the dull daily slog, for the rest of us the cost is learning generosity. …

Opptatt i Kirken 1/1, ordinert 13/1 og 15/1?

Katolsk, Økumenikk /

Jeg skrev i forgårs om de tre tidligere anglikanse biskopene som ble tatt opp i Den katolske Kirke 1. januar. Nå sies det at de allerede 13. januar og 15. januar vil bli ordinert til katolske diakoner og prester.

I have received information to the effect that … the former Anglican bishops received into the Catholic Church this morning will be ordained to the diaconate on January 13th and then to the priesthood two days later on January 15th, all pointing towards the setting up of an Ordinariate for England and Wales in the first half of January. Let’s see. As others have put it: «It’s actually happening.»

Vi merker oss her at den prosessen som vanligvis tar minst ett år (hvis biskopen dispenserer så mye som mulig), og for gifte menn (som disse er, der paven selv må gi dispensasjon) vil ta i alle fall tre år (ofte mer), i dette tilfellet vil ta bare to uker. Men så er det også en ekstraordinaær situasjon, og det er jo pave Benedikt selv som har tatt initiativ til at anglikanere kan bli tatt opp i Kirken på denne måten, og få beholde en hel del av sin arv. Disse mennene som nå snart blir ordinert, skal også lede den man kaller det anglikanske «ordinariatet» innen Den katolske Kirke i England. Men de vil ikke bli bispeviet, siden den eldgamle regelen om at bare ugifte menn kan bli biskoper, ikke skal/kan brytes.

OPPDATERING 4/1:
Disse opplysningene blir bekreftet hos the Catholic Herald.

Tre anglikanske biskoper tatt opp i Den katolske Kirke i dag

Katolsk, Økumenikk /

Her kan vi lese om messen i Westmintser Cathedral i London i dag:

One of my jobs is that of teaching Church History in a seminary, and it is a awesome (in the correct sense of the word) thing to be actually present at an event which my successors will be teaching about.

I was present today in Westminster Cathedral when three (not the five that had been prophesied) former Anglican bishops were received into full Communion with the Catholic Church.

The whole thing was very low-key, really. I turned up early, and was saying a prayer at the shrine of Our Lady of Pew when I was joined by a man in a purple tie. He asked for assistance in a small matter, and I recognized John Broadhurst … Mass duly began. There was absolutely no reference whatever to the elephant in the room (the reception of these notables) from the celebrant (and former Tibernaut) Bishop Alan Hopes or anyone else. It was simply a Mass for the feast of the Mother of God; a little note in the service sheet simply observed that there would be a reception in the middle. Finally, once he had preached, Bishop Hopes said a word about what was happening.

The reception itself was very low-key. The journalists turned out to be photographers, and put their heads over the screen behind the choir stalls, setting the volume of their shutter clicks to Maximum and Extremely Distracting. Only the three active flying bishops were received, all modestly and humbly in ties, together with some members of some of their families, plus the three sisters from Walsingham. …

Pave Benedikt møtte norsk, kvinnelig, luthersk biskop

Paven, Økumenikk /

«Paven var en flott personlighet, veldig nærværende og en interessert samtalepartner.» Slik oppsummerer bispemøtets preses, Helga Haugland Byfuglien, den private audiensen hos pave Benedikt i Vatikanet i går. Dette kan vi lese i Vårt Land.

Og de skriver også følgende: «Vi ble tatt vel imot. At jeg som kvinne og biskop var med i LVF-delegasjonen, var over hodet ikke noe tema, sier Haugland Byfuglien til Vårt Land etter møtet.» Pave Benedikt er en vennlig og høflig mann, og økumeniske samtaler handler i stor grad om vennlighet i våre dager, siden virkelig kirkelig enhet ikke er temaet særlig ofte. Og under møtet kom jo ikke spørsmålet om hvordan den katolske Kirke vurderer det lutherske bispembedet opp – verken når det gjelder mannlige eller kvinnelige lutherske biskoper.

Et annet perspektiv på synspunktene til den britiske Vatikan-ambassadøren

Katolsk, Paven, Økumenikk /

Jeg skrev for et par dager siden at referatet av synspunktene til Storbritannias ambassadør til Vatikanet – om pave Benedikts generøse initiativ til anglikanere som vile bli katolikker – ikke kunne være korrekt. Men William Oddie på sin side mener det var korrekt nok, men at det viser et annet problem:

The WikiLeaks revelation late last week of the contents of part of the conversation at a dinner in Rome held by Francis Campbell, now (thank heavens) former British ambassador to the Vatican, shows among much else how important it is that he be replaced by someone who understands a little more about what is and has been going on between Rome, Britain and (among other things) the Church of England. …

Oddie sier også at virkelige økumeniske samtaler mellom Vatikanet og anglikanerne døde for ca 20 år siden, da anglikanerne også i England begynte å ordinere kvinnelige prester:

The dinner, in honour of Rowan Williams during one of his periodic courtesy trips to Rome (for that is all they can be after the Church of England – having been repeatedly warned over more than half a century by Pope Paul and then by Pope John Paul of the consequences of women’s ordination – pulled out the rug from any further ecumenical progress nearly 20 years ago by doing it anyway), was attended by assorted Vatican officials and diplomats, including the American ambassador to the Vatican. …

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